Category: Parent Talk
Hi,
I believe that having kids or not, should be ideally seriously thought about and talked over by both partners before entering into it. Having said that, I know that's not a lot of the time the way it works. Situations happen. Kids are a huge responsibility and having them when you're not ready, can end up being a disaster. Yet, sometimes it works out for some people.
I personally don't want kids. There are several reasons why I don't want them. For one thing, I had to grow up really fast in a traumatic home environment and didn't get to have a childhood myself. As a result, I don't know how to identify with them, much, unless they're older, like 11 or so. For another, I have ovarian cyst and endometriosis issues and have had to have three surgeries to remove them. Therefore, I have to have a C-section cut once, with no kid to show for it. I'm sick of pain in that area and may have to have more surgeries in the future, to remove more cysts. Unlike most people, I don't really find kids cute. Rather, I find them annoying. I had a hard enough time in school myself, without having to help someone else through it all over again. I enjoy my freedom. I like being able to do what I want when I want, without having to worry about kids. I have two rabbits and a bird, which I consider my kids and they're wonderful. They've been with me through some of the worst times in my life. I love the fact that I can give them enough food and water to last a few days and if I leave for three days, they don't die without me. They're glad to see me when I come back. If I need or want to be gone for longer than a few days however, it's quite easy to pack them up and give them to my best friend to look after. My life has been hard enough and going through what I've been through over the last few years... not to mention most of my life... I can't imagine having had to drag a real human kid along for the ride. My rabbits and bird had enough of a crazy situation for a while, until we were fortunate enough to get into a stable home environment again. I guess I'm at the point where I feel I'd be incredibly lucky if I found someone who actually cared about me and my animals. Ideally, I'd like to settle down with a special person and have a long, happy, human kid-less life.
That being said, if I found a special person with kids already, I wouldn't automatically not consider them, just because they have kids. I’d possibly consider adoption later, if the person I was with really had to have kids, but I don't want them biologically at all. Anyone else with me? Anyone else not want or really even like, kids? Or am I the only sort of anti-kid person here? lol.
Take Care,
Dawnielle
My theory is, to each, her own.
Nobody should feel badly for not wanting kids. You're right, they are a huge responsibility and life changers. I wouldn't trade my kiddo for anything in the world but I also wouldn't begin to try to tell someone that she should have a kiddo. Anyone who does is just wacked.
Regarding your endo and systs, have you considered a hysterectomy? IF you truly don't want to have kiddos, get that sucker yanked out. This is coming from someone who had a hysterectomy at age 30 due to endo and I can honestly say it was the best decision I could have made. The recovery was beastly but man oh man, life is sure better.
I hope all that works out for you.
I love kids and have some.
Mine are now able to care for themselves, so I'd not be wanting anymore unless a woman just had to have one. She'd need to be it parents, because I'd be more like a buddy. Lol
Saying that I'd really hate to see someone have them that doesn't want to for any reason.
Many people say it is selfish, but I see it as really a smart thing to do for yourself and the unborn. You won't care for a child as well as if you wanted one.
Adoption should be out as well unless you can adopt a baby. Older children sometimes have other issues, so if you aren't willing to deal with your own you'll hate dealing with someones elses.
Hysterectomy would also be out for any woman I could talk out of it. My reasons for this is natural and when you take these parts from a female body you mess up the balance. Hysterectomy should be only done if you have no other choice for some medical reason. Keep all your body intact, but get a reliable method, or have your tubes tied instead.
In these days you never ever have to have a child, so accidents are preventable, and if you do find yourself pregnant, soon as you know don't be.
Many times with endomentriosis, hysterectomy is the only option depending on the severity. Good thing none of us are doctors, huh. *smile*
I've known I don't want kids myself for twenty years, and that's not about to change anytime soon, and I also had to grow up too fast, and I as well can't identify with them as well.
Hi,
I’ve considered a Hysterectomy, yes, but I'd rather not be on hormone replacement for the next 25 years. I'm only 29. My doctor says I'm too young to have to go through something like that. If I were older and didn't need my ovaries anymore, she could see taking them. At this point though, she's not really for it. I've done a lot of research and I honestly don’t' know if it would help or not. Many people have more hormonal issues, if they have Hysterectomies younger. They force your body to go into menopause way early, which throws off your system. Many people have way worse symptoms than if they had waited. Some people say it was the best thing they ever did. Some say it was a horrible decision and they wish they never had done it. Due to all the cysts and such, I currently have one and a half ovaries. The cysts keep coming back on both of them, so taking one out, wouldn't solve my problem. I have an IUD in now. Regular birth control pills weren't working for me very well. With all my endo plus the cysts, the chances of me having a kid are slimmer anyway and then you add the IUD on top of it for birth control. My doctor also hopes the IUD will help control the endo. Therefore, that’s currently where I’m at with things. If I had a partner and they were really worried about having kids, we could still use condoms as added protection.
Take Care and thanks for the responses,
Dawnielle
Yeah, I guess I wasn't very clear. I meant the hysterectomy as a treatment for the endo not as birth control. lol
It is a very difficult decision, especially considering your age. When my doctor discussed it with me, he said that he wouldn't leave my ovaries because they're what produce the hormones that contribute to the indo. I did HRT for about 3 years and then got off of it because I'm a smoker and because I gained about 40 pounds that I just can't seem to shake. I've heard of others having difficulties with hormones. I guess I got lucky.
Whatever happens, and whatever you decide about treatment for the endo, I wish you the best of luck. You have my empathy because I know how crippling it can be.
Best of luck to you.
Thanks very much, domestic goddess. i know, it's a hard choice and i'm not really sure what to do to be honest. So, that's why i've simply chosen to leave my 1.5 ovaries for now and see what happens. However, every time I end up having to have surgery again, I think oh dear God... maybe I would have been better off just getting everything removed. Yet, i don't want to deal with the potential hormonal changes. I have depression anyway. i've battled it for most of my life in some wayor another. Hence another reason why I'm not thrilled about potentially inducing hormonal changes. of course, if the cysts and/or endo were so bad when they got in there, that they had to remove the ovaries, I would have no choice but to deal with whatever might happen afterwards. So, before a surgery, I always try to prepare myself for that possibility. I've noticed some slight hormonal changes after each successive surgery, as they've gradually taken away my ovary. It usually takes a few weeks for me to become balanced again.
Anyway, i'm glad the Hysterectomy worked for you!!
Take Care,
Dawnielle
there's already several recent board topics about this...
Last Summer, I started a thread called: Choosing to Be childless, under the Let's Talk board. Most of my opinions about reproducing are there.
I have no desire to have children, and though I am not looking for a life partner at the moment, if anyone I'm interested in or considering dating wants children, I immediately lose interest. It's the biggest turn off ever. If I married someone, I would rather find out they had been gay through the duration of our marriage, than find out that they wanted children out of the blue. I can be good friends with the gay guy even after the divorce. The man who wants to be a parent is choosing a lifestyle I want no part of whatsoever.
I'm sorry. I had looked on the boards and I didn't see any topics of this nature on the let's talk board. I completely agree. i thought it fit here, because this board is about kids. I'd rather find out a guy is gay too, than find out they wanted kids all along. It's frustrating because a lot of guys seem to think they have to have kids to be more of a man or whatever. it doesn't make sense to me.
Take Care,
Dawnielle
kids are 1 of the many things that really annoy me, so if i had them- i think it would just send me over the edge!. being around people with kids is enough
I'm one of those people who don't want kids. Do I hate them? No. I'd never want any harm to come to a child, but I also don't want to ever take responsability for one. Many people have criticized me for this choice, saying I'm selfish and that I will never grow up, but I find that many of the reasons people typically want children are much more selfish than my reasons for not having them. Sorry, but having a child because you want your last name to be carried on, because you hope they'll take care of you when you're old, or because you hope that you'll get unconditional love from them is very naive, not to mention all of these things are selfish. Frankly, we have enough children in terible situations and I don't need to bring any in to this world which is a pretty nasty place anyhow. I also do not identify with children very well either. I suppose I could if I put more effort in to it, but I'm too busy enjoying being an adult who loves traveling, helping adults, and educating others, which is part of my profession. I certainly have nothing against those who decide children are right for them, it's just not a life style I choose to embrace for myself.
I agree completely. I think this world is a bad enough place. Why bring any other people into it? I don't want harm to come to children, either. i think that a lot of the reasons people tend to want kids are selfish, as well. Having someone who can carry on your name, having someone to do all the things their parents never did when they were kids. For example, become a famous music star, etc. It's like, if you wanted to do that stuff so badly, go and do it yourself. I don't know. i see a lot of people who tend to shove their kids inot doing things they wanted to do themselves and to me, that's really selfish, too.
Take Care,
Dawnielle
Dawnielle, if you put the topic title into the search field under the Let's talk board, it will come up for sure.
I did exactly that put the title of this in to the search box and it did not come up.
However, what does it matter?
I see many topics specially on tech asking the same questions? Maybe it is this one rubs some wrong?
Just my thoughts. Smile.
I don't think that men feel they have to have children to feel more like men, they do it because it's part of the American Dream. And, in many cases, because they feel pressure from society. I could be wrong on this, but it seems more men than women actually do not want children. However, for myself at least, I call it the American Dream because you have to be asleep to actually believe it. And, like what was said before, people try to live their lives through their children, forgetting that old conventional wisdom that the only person you can truly control is yourself.
Scott's right: I've never met a man tried to pressure the woman into having kids. Tends to work the other way round, usually. After all, men, and not women, pay for child support, are demeaned just for being fathers and are assumed to be deadbeats, and all the rest. To be a man is to be guilty until proven innocent. Interestingly enough, I know a couple trans people who were once women and are now men. As women, they were told everything about male privilege. Now that they're men, they feel they got ripped off. Ironic, isn't that? I have no issue with the trans people. I only see it as pretty descriptive of the situation as it really is.
Not only that, I also don't think being child-free is selfish at all.
There is the one factor none of the child-free people have pointed out, and I'm surprised: It's called accidents, what the chicks call "Surprise," or gift from God". Know what? There's a lot of 'em out there, and not just in the fost care system. If someone plans for, and remains, child-free, that is a planned act that took forethought. Gentlemen, if you're serious, get it snipped. I did after our first one, and I've never regretted it since.
Of course, you are told as a man you have unrightly taken the control away from her, that now she can't choose anymore, which only further illustrates the irony of modern thinking. Just be glad now that you can get it done without a woman's consent. When I did it, I could not. That was fine, because at the time the wife was in agreement. But I knew single guys who had no woman to consent and so were denied access to getting it snipped. They tell me now it's different, but how does a society who talks so highly of rights and bodies then deny a man the right to be sterile?
Anyway if it is different, then all I can say is, guys, it's a pretty sure thing, especialy as time goes by. If you're poor, pay your Planned Parenthood a visit: they'll give you a voucher for a local urologist who will get the job done. Do it on a Friday so you can be off your feet when you're not at work, and you'll all be good to go.
Just a few ramblings from someone on the other side.
But wow to the post about men pressuring women into having kids. These guys don't know anything about family court, or what?
You can get snipped just because you wish it.
Yes, it is usually the women that want kids. I have had arguments over using condoms with women before.
Oh, don't worry, I won't get pregnant!I don't like these things.
Yep! Put a good quality one on and she never noticed the differents until you hand it to her after.
As I say, I really love kids, but for these that don't want them I'd say please don't. Kids need parents that want them, because as pointed out all the reasons some people have them are selfish.
I never expect anything from mine after they are grown. We will either be friends or not, but a kid doesn't owe you anything. Of course you hope you'll be loved, but that is not a promise.
Have them because you enjoy raising them, but not for insurance on your future.
Lots of good points here that I never thought of. I've never been against having kids, but I never thought deeply about why I would want kids of my own.
I agree. If you're a guy and don't want kids, get snipped. It's a lot less of a procedure than a girl getting her tubes tied. My ex-fiance's mental health worker did just that and he didn't regret it at all. it makes you no less of a man. I asked about getting my tubes tied when i was having my last surgery, but my doctor said it was too late for me to request that. Apparently, it would have to have been cleared with my insurance and was too late for that. So, I got the IUD instead. However, if I have another surgery, I might ask for it again. The only problem is, getting your tubes tied isn't exactly fool-proof either. Then you run the small risk of ectopic pregnancy. in my opinion, it's just a lot safer for the guy to get it done. In my experience, it's mainly been the guy who wants kids, but then again, maybe I just tend to find guys that want kids. I've only met one who didn't.
Take Care,
Dawnielle
I'd certainly like to have kids someday, but I wanted to come here to say that I'm glad those of you who know you don't want them, wanna do what it takes so you don't have them. that's respectable, in my opinion.
Well any surgery can have complications even getting snipped.
I think now that we have so many methods there simply is no reason to have a child if you truly don't want one snipped or tied, or not.
I personally would prefer any woman I am with to remain as natural as possible, because she might change her mind some time.
Also altering her body causes issues from time to time, so use what I call a portable method.
I agree with you, forereel. Any surgery can have complications. i just know that a guy getting fixed, is a lot less of a procedure than it is for a girl to have her tubes tied. That's why I wanted mine done when I was in for my last surgery, anyway. They were already going to be opening me up for a third time, so I said why not? you're going to be in there anyway. It was like a week before my surgery. It was too late and my insurance wouldn't have cleared it, at that late a date. So, that's why I said fine, put me on the IUD. If i have to be opened up again though, I won't hesitate to ask that the tube tying be done at the same time. I've never wanted kids for most of my life, and don't see myself changing my mind. Sure, i've had a few times for about a day or two, when i think oh wow. It might be fun to adopt a kid hkid to teach things to and play with. That doesn't last too long, though.
Take Care,
Dawnielle
You mean right about when your thoughts get to the diaper changing, sticky hands on your new dress, waking up in the middle of the night, you say, oh no?
JK, had to tease you about that one. Smile.
Yep, when my hubby joined the Big V club, he was awake during the procedure. He went home, put some ice on the boys, took some tylanol, and was up playing guitar and drinking vodka in a few hours. lol
What if the guy doesn't want to get it snipped? Would you end the relationship if that was the case, or would you get the tubes tied?
I'll answer that from my side.
No, if she didn't want to get her tubes tied we'd find a solution that worked for us both.
If she said from the start she didn't want kids I knew this, so that wouldn't be grounds for ending a relationship at all. The issue shouldn't even get on the table anymore.
Now if I didn't know, or she decided later on that she doesn't want to have kids I'd not want to be given a choice either I get snipped, or she's history. She'd have to be history. The reason for this is maybe down the line she decideds to be history for some other reason and I'm snipped right? It is really a personal decision.
In this case the poster says if she gets to decide again she'll get tied, but it should never be placed on the table as leverage. . .
I agree with Wayne's last post. should I ever find myself in such a situation, I'd wanna do my best to find middle ground with the person. if that isn't possible, then, yes, the relationship would end.
I'm with both Emily and Scott on this. Like Emily, kids annoy the hell out of me, so having one is the last thing I want. I get more than enough of that being around my nieces and one nephew. I love them dearly, but can only handle them, or kids in general, in small doses.
But like Scott, I can't stand people who abuse children. It's one of the worst crimes there is.
I've known for years that I did not want children. I, too, have been called selfish for this, but in my view, it would be far more selfish to bring a child into the world and then be a lousy parent because I didn't want them in the first place. I got my tubes tied years ago, and it's a choice I don't regret.
I'm all for getting my tubes tied. In my case however, i've already been opened up three times and really don't want to be opened up again just for that. My doctor also advises against it because I have lots of scar tissue already, etc. If i have more issues with cysts and endo and they're going to have to open me up anyway however, absolutely, tie my tubes while you're in there!!
Sword of sapphire, I did some more looking and i found your post on the lets talk board last night. it's quite a ways back, about four pages back in fact, so no wonder I didn't see it. Anyway, i thought this was a fitting place for such a post because it's a parent board, etc. I agree with you about kids. I don't like them at all when they're little. My brothers' girlfriend has a son and I spent a few hours with them, at the beginning of January. The boy is two and a half. For the last two hours or so I was there, the kid cried most of the time. He had a cold, so he was already grumpy. After he awoke from his nap however, it was worse. He said he wanted a banana, so my brothers' girlfriend gave him one. He ate that and it succeeded in keeping him quiet for about ten minutes. After that, he was howling again. My brother changed his diaper and he still cried. I had the impulse to strangle the kid. When I got home, I took about an hour and just chilled. My dad's wife has a son who has a kid as well and I spent time with them at Christmas. It takes a lot out of me to be around kids and stay in a halfway decent mood.
Take Care,
Dawnielle
That's awesome, Sister Dawn
I really don't get how people can say yall are selfish for not wanting kids. That's ridiculous. It's far more selfish to have them for the wrong reasons.
JHMO
I truly wish more people thought as you all did, in that bringing children into the world when they're already unwanted, is selfish. cause, more often than not, those are some of the unhappiest people, both parent and child. I was one of them, for the longest time.
So was I.
I wish more people thought about it, too. it would certainly keep a lot of unwanted kids from being born. I was wanted by my parents, and then when I became blind as an infant, that was hard for them to deal with. I grew up in a very abusive home, not wanting to live for most of my life, until about four years ago. That's yet another reason I dont want kids. I would never, ever want them to go through the things I have.
Take Care,
Dawnielle
You're not alone in feeling that way. I would never want a child to go through the things I did when I was young, seeing what my father did in his younger days going into drunken rages and beating on mom while my brother and I were in the next room. So I don't ever wanna make the same mistakes my ol' man made with us.
I'm not going back on what I've said here, but given that you guys wouldn't wanna make the same mistakes, do you think those of us who grew up similarly would? cause, personally, I've learned how to parent, and how not to, by growing up the way I did.
Agreed with the last post: My daughter's life was very different from mine. Even if I have been, and perhaps fairly, criticized for over-compensating or going too much the other direction.
I've learned how to be a civil human being from going through hell. If you don't feel as though you can be a responsible parent and admit it before you have one, more power to you. Should I decide to have kids, I know what is right from wrong. I'm sure it will be a learning experience at times as well. You may have a good head on your shoulders and great intentions for your kids, but from hearing parents talk there are some things you don't know and feel until you have the child.
Oh absolutely Ryan. And then, speaking from the other side, you don't always know even afterwards: you just done the best you could at the time, is what it amounts to.
I had a wonderful child hood, so does that mean I'm going to treat my kinds bad?
If you had a bad child hood, seems like it help you to do or be a better parent.
I have read, that people that come from abusive families sometimes become abusive themselves. If you feel like that is the issue, you are correct not to have kids.
You have pointed out they bother you after 5 minutes, so why do it?
I'd personally not stick a needdle in my eye, so.
I don't feel that i would be an abusive parent. I'm not an abusive person. I just wouldn't want a kid to have to go through a lot of the things I have had to go through in life. My life has been messed up enough without dragging some innocent kid along for the ride. These last several years have been hard enough for me and my pets to get through in one piece. But no, I don't think that people who were abused as kids are automatically going to be abusers or that people who had great childhoods aren't automatically going to be abusers. I know it can go either way.
Take Care,
Dawnielle
I more or less agree with Dawnielle. I've been told by many people that I am good with kids (altough I can be a bit distant with them sometimes), but I don't think I'd want any of my own and certainly not while I was still living on SSI. This isn't to say I wouldn't do my best if I did end p a dad (I would make every effort), but nor will I be particularly devastated if it never happens. Having dated women with kids several times I have had a taste of what a big responsibility it is.
I certainly don't wanna have kids. None, at, all! I'm dead serious. I've been called at by my family for it, being told that I'd be of no worth for a man, but that's all just a crop of shit. I'm good at working with them, but only for a little while. Nothing against kids, it's simpley that Life is already hard for me, and why make it harder on the kid.
just had to post to this topic again, to say that my views have changed, regarding whether I want kids.
while I still don't think kids are obnoxious, I personally wouldn't wanna bring any into the world, for many of the reasons mentioned above.
I forgot to add that one thing that has caused me to change my mind about having kids, is the fact that I decided to ask myself if having them was something I truly wanted to do.
I ultimately came to the conclusion that society conditions us to want them.
at least, I can honestly say that I've never heard people talk about how kids can take away from people's lives, just as much as some say they can and do, add to them.
I just don't think i'd have the patience to really be a great parent. Plus, kids annoy me, at least the really badly behaved ones around here. they're always screaming, kicking the shit out of one another, crying, getting in to trouble, and generally acting like complete fools. I just don't have the desire to deal with that, day in, day out in my own life. I had an interesting childhood. Saw the best, and the worst of parenting. though, that being the case, I doubt i'd turn in to an abuser, or anything crazy.
I think the last reason I know I don't want kids, is that I know I've still got a lot of growing up to do. I'm still selfish. I still know I want to do more of my thing. Really go out and see the world before I commit to having a child, and locking myself down in one place for the next several years.
Sure, you can move with a child, though its not really super ideal, and I wouldn't want to put a child threw that.
My mother has told me numerous times that one of her bigger regrets was keeping us children, that we kept her from living her dreams, because she was a teen parent, and never got to really live for her. I don't want to end up in a situation where I have so many mixed feelings about a child. I've thought about getting snipped, but I'm not sure that's the choice I really should make at this age, particularly if its not reversible.
Something I never thought of, when we had our baby, you never know what life will take you, or what school system will be the best for your kid at a particular age. You may have to make some sacrifices like I did, where you end up living where you cannot come and go as you please. This is really difficult as a blind person to live where you cannot go to the store for yourself or do anything for yourself. It is difficult, and it is worth it for the kids schooling. But it will take a lot out of you, I'm not going to lie to you. I don't resent having done it, but I certainly would applaud anybody who thought about this before they had a kid, if they were blind. It means, that when your kid is in high school, you won't build to take them out places. You might want to do that, and if you live in a place we have good transportation, and if the schools are good, so you can stay there, then you're all good. Otherwise, that's a huge part of Google missing. Algal missing for your kid, not just you. Even if your kid doesn't know it. Just another aspect to consider. Something that I never thought about before we had ours. Not saying that should be a winner lose factor, but you should be honest with yourself about what that does to you personally. It can be very corrosive of the corrosive over time, even though you love your kids, to not be able to come and go as you please.
I've thought about this a lot in the past couple of years, and have come to the conclusion that having children really isn't for me. If somehow we beat the odds and have a kid, I think I'll do all right as a dad, but it wouldn't be what I actively wanted.
For one thing, I'm all right with older children but am not too good with really little ones. It takes a lot of experience getting used to how to treat them, what to do with them, even how to talk to them past a certain point. I could do it, but it'd be a lot to learn.
For another thing, there's the money. Raising a child costs money, and if you don't have kids you probably end up having a bit more financial leeway in general. I wasn't exactly dirt poor growing up, but I have never been above the lower end of the middle-class spectrum. Having money is not something I'm really used to at all, thus money has power because I know how dear it is and how essential it can be to one's survival. That said, the idea of having children and for a great while incurring a large debt or financial burden seems silly. Let me be clear before I go any further though: I'm not saying that those of you who had kids are being foolish, and I'm also not saying that money is one of the largest considerations on whether or not I'd want to be a father. It's just something to bear in mind.
Really, I think the deal-breaker for me is lifestyle. I'm thirty years old. I'm still in school. I made a lot of mistakes that took away a lot of time...and I don't really want to be fifty-odd years old sitting in the second row at my daughter's high-school graduation. A child just isn't really something I look for, it's as simple as that.
Years ago, I was different. I wasn't exactly chomping at the bit to be a dad, but I did want it to happen one day. The desire to not have children grew little by little until it is what it's become lately. I don't dislike kids, I don't have a thing against parents, and I don't necessarily think I'd make a bad parent. I just...don' want them, and not having them will allow my partner and I a different lifestyle more in line with what we want.
One thing more I'll say before I leave off this post. Some of you say that you went through hell and wouldn't want children because you don't wish what you went through on them. You...do realize that in essence you're saying that you expect that you're going to make the same mistakes as your own parents, don't you? My mom was beaten by her father whshnshe was little, and he had something of a weakness for booze, yet my mother drank responsibly and never beat us...the worst she ever did was spank. Some children really do carry on abusive legacies, but many of them, especially the more self-conscious and self-aware examples, know how to hold in their tempers and bad impulses. They've learned from those who did it to them what -not to do, and I'd wager that for at least some of those who've espoused this "I don't want to put them through what I went through" stance, perhaps you should give yourself a little more credit.
I have one reason--and I mean one overarching reason--not to have children and it's similar to what Chelsea mentioned. I simply don't really want them. Would I keep the child if I got pregnant by accident? Yes, very likely I would. I would keep and raise and love that child, and I'd never never make him or her feel guilty for having come into the world when they weren't really planned for or wanted. I'd do all I could for them, and I think I could be a pretty good mom. But I don't plan on having them because I ... just don't have a desire for them. And you're absolutely right, Chelsea: society conditions us to want them. We grow up picturing the happy family, but where is the law that says that is the only (or best) path to happiness?
Millie, if I read your post right, your family actually told you that you wouldn't be worth anything to a man because you don't want kids? WTF? First, that's cruel of them, and second, that's crap! The majority of men I've known don't want kids, and are specifically looking for women who don't want them, either. So that's nonsense!
Chelsea, you are right, society does condition us to want them. Though I have to say the conditioning didn't really work on me. I've known since my late teens and early 20's I did not want them. I will admit that at least in my case, there is such a thing as a biological clock. I've felt a desire for them on and off over the last couple years, but I recognize it as purely a hormonal thing, because both my heart and my mind know better. It's one of the many reasons I got my tubes tied when I did: I think I instinctively knew that at some point, that biological clock might make itself known and muddy those waters. Pretty much all I have to do when I feel that is hang out with my nieces and nephew for a day. So back to your point Chelsea, I think it's part societal conditioning, and a bit biology, at least in the case of some women.
Meglet and others, I'm glad you know that if you did end up having a child that was not planned for, you would be able to keep it and love it. I totally respect that. I don't think I'd be able to. Years ago I had a pregnancy scare, and me and my boyfriend of the time both agreed that should it be the case, we would give the baby up. It would have messed me up emotionally, but I sincerely believe it would have been the right move for the child's sake, and I would have done it. Thankfully that didn't have to happen.
I like the point that sw braught up about how people don't want a child to go through the hell that they did. If you know what you went through wasn't fair or moral, and you don't intend to act the same way your abusers acted, then there's no reason to worry of putting a child through the same hell you did. There is one eception that I can see, however, and that might be if you are worried of ending up with someone who is abusive to you or the child and are too afraid to pull the both of you from him/her for the child's sake. When it's said here on paper it is obvious that that is the right thing to do, but I have found and heard that it is easier said than done.
I also had a hellish childhood, but that isn't the reason why I am currently undecided about having children in and of itself. I didn't really have a good role mottle parent until I was out on my own as I have probably said before. And though I have been told I am intellegent and that I have a good head on my shoulders, I refuse to believe that this determines what a good father is. We can easily think a great deal of bias, meaning I can and do agree that I am intellegent, but that does not make me a better father who busts his ass at a crappy job to put food on the table for his family, because he simply didn't want to take the route I have because it is not for him. There is still I have a lot to consider, think about, and plan for before I consider having children. I haven't had time to think about it at all because of school and more important priorities. I all most see myself in the same boat as sw because I started school a little later, and if I continue to take the path towards a Master's degree I probably won't be done until I'm 26 or 27. This is something I want to do, and at the current time I don't want kids, nor do I want to settle down with someone as I am still trying to find what I like and prefer in people. That's a whole other topic, though.
I have equal respect for you, Alicia, because you would give the child up rather than keep it when you didn't want it and very possibly couldn't give it all it might need, at least to your standards.
And, yes, that's total crap about men all wanting kids and refusing women who don't want them. While it's true that a lot of guys do want kids, many don't, so you should be able to find a partner who agrees with you. It is such a weight off my shoulders to know that my partner feels the way I do.
Alicia, you read correctly. They say that I'd be no worth to a man because god created us women to bare ofspring. And that my chances of getting uterin cancer in my later years is higher than those who do have kids. Which is plain stupid. They think that I'm unwilling to pay the price of my mistakes with my kids, just as my parents did with me. If I was double the trouble to my mother than she was to her mother, I honestly wish she wasn't my mother. Honestly they're full of shit. Call me selfish, but I don't want kids, period.
That's not selfish. It's a little ferocious, maybe, the way it's worded, but honestly from the little I've seen about what you dealt with from your family, it's probably warranted. No judgment call on this end, I can tell you that much.
Incidentally, I may be wrong but I thought there was a procedure to try and reverse a vasectomy. Some sort of graft that gave the man a chance to become a viable donor again.
Uh uh. No kids, not even adopted ones. And I wouldn't risk passing on my blindness and progressive hearing loss, as I've said on other boards. That's cruel.
I do wonder why women that truly know they don't want kids simply don't do as sister has done? Same with men? If you don't want kids, why deal with the scares and such?
Now I know tubes can come loose, I'm proof, but if you do something like that you have about a 90% chance you'll never have a scare, and your clock won't bother you either.
That is another great point many women don't think about, the natural things that happen to them.
I personally feel that the birth control pill is a good enough fit, for me. it's 99 percent effective, and isn't anywhere near as hard on a woman's body as having their tubes tied might be.
Heh heh heh he you said hard on.
Reel Wayne, I think there are a few reasons why more women don't make the choice I made. One is that many don't like the idea of the surgery. Yes, it's a very minor one, and recovery is quick, but surgery does put many people off. If there was no other alternative, more might do it, but I know many think as Chelsea has said, and would much rather do something like the pill than an operation, no matter how minor. I don't blame them for that.
The second, and I suspect even bigger reason, is that most of the time, doctors won't do that particular surgery on a young woman. The only reason I was able to convince my doctor to do it is that I have a 50/50 risk of passing on the cancer that blinded me to a child. I'm not scared of having a blind child, (if I wanted kids at all), but I certainly wasn't willing to risk passing on cancer. There were other reasons I didn't want them, but that was the one that got my doctor to agree. She said that ordinarily she would never do it on a woman in her 20's as I was, and I know her opinion to be a common one among doctors. I have heard from other women who knew they didn't want kids, and wanted their tubes tied, but whose doctors refused to do the surgery unless there was some serious medical condition that could be passed on.
Yes, Wayne, there's absolutely no way the average doctor would perform such a surgery on a nineteen-year-old who is low-risk, genetically speaking, and otherwise perfectly healthy. At best, they'd tell me to wait ten years and see if I change my mind. Birth control is fine as long as you're careful with it. Sometimes the unfortunate thing does happen, and someone who is very responsible with the pill still gets pregnant, but far more often it's not the pill's fault at all. Women who get pregnant on the pill usually later admit that they missed one here and there etc. I'd never never take that chance. Not worth it.
I completely agree with what most of the other SW said.
and hmm, I didn't mean so much as abusing. I know I don't have it in me to inflict anything like what I was raised with. But as sad as it sounds, I 'm not sure how welcoming i'd be to a new child in my life. while I don't think i'd be anywhere near as bitter about it as my mom was, I also know the pain of knowing for years my mom didn't really want kids, but was trying to make the best of it. did she love some aspects, yes... But the day to day, no.
Even before she finally came out and said what she said, I knew... How she felt. I don't want to inflict that on a child, if I can help it.
I may fall in love with my child. Not in the creepy sense, but you know. he/she may grow on me, if I had one, but they may not... I don't want to face that guilt. think about how shitty it must feel to hate your child.
Or even to not love your child in the way you feel you should. No one wants to live a lie.
I'd have to agree with the doctor that wouldn't do it for a 19 year old women. I'm just sayiing after a particular age, and dependiing on some factors it might be the easiest choice. I'm not talking only for women, but men as well, so I'm not one sided here.
Doctors are odd people, and many times the things they will or won't do are personal, not medical. I'd want a doctor that went on medical, but saddly that isn't the case.
It is the reason why some doctors would gladdly do it on a blind woman, because she shouldn't have kids at all. Or why states and such try to convince a disabled women to give her child up, or try to take it. You can't care for one anyway, right?
Having oneself fixed seems to be a good choice, just not for all.
Ah okay; I only assumed you thought I should do it because you mentioned me directly.
One pet peeve of mine is when, in a long-term relationship, when the woman doesn't want kids and the guy isn't sure but is happy not to while he's with her, it's automatically assumed that it's the man who should be "fixed". Sure, it's much more invasive for a woman with potentially greater risks, but if she's 100% sure and he's only sure as long as he's with her, then I think she should be the one to go through it, not him. I do hope that if it ever comes to that and I'm still with my current partner that he'll be willing to do it instead of me going through the procedure, but only on the grounds of greater risk and invasiveness, and not jusbe because I'm a woman and therefore shouldn't have to do anything. And if he was open to children--only going without because he wants to be with me--then I'd never ask him to go through with it in case something should happen to me and he wants to have kids with someone else.
On a similar note, I hate it when men treat birth control like it's so so so much easier than putting up with a condom. Yes, for a few women it's just taking a pill every night, but for women like myself, it has a lot of side effects and isn't exactly a walk in the park to take.
I'd suspect that birth control is, on average, easier on sex itself and more pervasive in life itself than a condom. After all, you only have to deal with a condom for very brief periods, while birth control is constantly in your system, doing things to your body that your body quite frankly could do without. Some women get lucky and don't suffer too much, while others have it worse. Even for the lucky ones, though, there is some unnatural stuff going on. However, the reason I mentioned this at all is because it's rather a mixed bag. Some guys will tell you that a condom deadens the skin-on-skin sensation during sex, and if a guy can't get it up or keep it up because he's not getting the right sensations, then he's going to be pretty useless at sex. Arguably, then, condoms can be rather damaging to sex itself if the guy is particularly touchy, so I don't like it when men are demonized for not being willing to wear a condom, assuming they demonstrably have this issue at least. I remember reading a health sciences textbook in early high school, or maybe grade seven or eight, where they were talking about pregnancy and risks and birth control and all that stuff. There were different problems and you were supposed to explain where each person in each problem fell as far as right or wrong went. Well, said textbook condemned the guy who wouldn't wear a condom without asking why or wondering, made him look selfish even though there was nothing about selfishness present in the problem description.
...and I've rambled quite enough. Heh. Point is, it's a muddy issue.
My point is that I don't like men bitching about condoms *when* and only when they treat birth control like it's no biggy. It is a biggy at least some of the time, just like condoms are a big deal for some guys.
Alicia, it's interesting you should mention a woman's age factoring into whether a doctor would allow her to have her tubes tied, as I've heard that they wouldn't allow someone as young as I am to do so.
in fact, the main reason I said I'd stick to the pill for now, was cause I wanna wait till I talk to my doctor, to see what his perspective on this is.
unlike most women, though, having my tubes tied is a surgery I'd be thrilled about, as it's all about being responsible for myself, taking measures I know I've thought long and hard about, and also allowing future partners of mine to be able to relax.
I personally never had a problem with condoms. I have and will use them now.
I think people that do have problems mainly don't pay attenchen to buying quality types.
They are just like anything else, they have baddly made, and they have some that almost feel natural. These are made of skin. The don't protect against STD's but do pregnancy.
I made it my business to learn about them, and try different kinds until I found a brand I like.
Some are even better feeling for the women, because they've got ridges and such on them.
I believe it is a man's responsiibility equally. If a man doesn't want kids he should get snipped if he really feels strongly about it. That way he doesn't have to discuss it with new partners. He is fixed, so can't create them.
Good for you, Chelsea. I hope you find an understanding doctor who'll be willing to do it for you.
thanks, Meglet. I appreciate that.
my OBGYN's office staff said I'm old enough for a tubal ligation, so the next step is meeting with the doctor to discuss it.
Meglet, I've never heard that perspective on getting fixed before. It's a new day, I guess. I'm personally glad I went and did it, for all the typical reasons men do.
You know, it's easier for us, women are burdened with having to actually go through the pregnancy and have a child, and so on. The condom thing is a little bit more complicated than most of your typical ideology makes it out today. It's not just men not wanting to wear them. Many women say they have an allergy to LATex, or they just don't like it. One good reason to develop their birth-control methods for men. Something like the pill. Wayne is right though, there are newer better options now. I simply haven't had to deal with that, being fixed for the last 15 years, and in a single long-term relationship.
Aww, that's awesome, Chelsea! Keep me posted.
I do understand that, in terms of pregnancy and in terms of the surgery, women go through more, but if the man isn't sure, and the woman is absolutely sure, she should be the one to go through it. If both are perfectly sure though, it gets a little muddier I'm afraid.
And, for the record, I completely understand why some men don't like and even can't use condoms, and I agree with Leo that more sophisticated birth control for men has got to be implemented. As I said in my previous post, the only thing I objected to in the condoms versus birth control argument was men objecting to condoms but also demonizing a woman for not liking birth control. It really is more than a pill.
I think the reason women say they dislike condoms is because they don't go buy them. The man will bring the worst, so sure they feel bad.
The women that has her own uses them, because she buys the type she likes.
I've done a test with a couple women that stated they hated them. I put one on, but didn't let them know I did. During sex, I made a statement about how good it felt to not be using one.
After we finished, I dropped it on her stomach. Smile.
I really believe, some women just like to be had naked. It is a mental thing I guess.
I have read someplace that the sperm heightens mood as well.
Yes, it releases endorphins I believe. That's what causes the afterglow effect.
I really don't have a huge desire to have them. So I feel like it's more selfish of me to have them without the desire than to just be neutral about them. People say I'm being pessimistic when I say that I don't want to bring anyone else here, but I think it's just realistic. We have enough people here already. Why should I bring another one here just because I want someone of my own, or whatever the argument is?
honestly, if the "good"condoms don't protect from STI, that eliminates half the reason or more to use them, right there. I'd rather just get fixed, and have sex with only those I trust than worry about will the condom work, or will it not?
In the case of an untrusted person, I'd still probably want some assurance, but again, the really nice ones wouldn't give me that... So, why bother?
Wow Meglet. I've heard some women talk about how they like to actually feel the guy come inside them. Maybe that's why? Of course I'd only do that with a girl I trusted, and in this day and age it's often hard to know who you can put in that camp.
lol what are you wowing about? I'm afraid I don't understand.
I'm confused, too.
If you're wowing about the endorphins thing, I didn't create it. lol It's biology.
I just never really thought of it as being the reason some women like to actually feel the guy come inside them.
I think it's endorphines, and a few other hormones too. Thinking oxytocin, but not sure if that's the right one.
I know that oxytocin is released, but I'm not sure exactly when or how.
Well Meglet, A little sex education perhaps? Smile.
Seriously, it isn't the only reason. I have been told it is more spontaneous and such things as well.I don't think trust has anything to do with it. Girls you trust have babies just like girls you don't. If you don't want a baby you are responsible.
The condoms that are made os skin protect from producing babies, so in my book worth using. The laytex, or however that is spelled could keep you from getting a mild infection she might have, STD, so that is why the ones that are skin are marked on the packages not for protecting against STD's.
Um, are you trying to educate -me, Wayne? Because there was nothing in your post that I didn't know...